Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) customers in the work-related activity group (WRAG) are expected to start preparing for a return to work. Currently, these customers are required to undertake work-focused interviews. The Government is looking to build on this by implementing existing primary powers to require customers to undertake work-related activity. This is activity which makes it more likely that the person will obtain or remain in work or be able to do so.
The Government is preparing regulations which will enable either providers or Jobcentre Plus to:
- require ESA WRAG customers to undertake work-related activity
- direct that the customer must undertake a specific activity to meet the work-related activity requirement.
We expect to use the powers flexibly so that the adviser can devise a tailored plan for each customer. This means that the nature, frequency and amount of work-related activity required could vary from customer to customer but the requirement must always be reasonable in the customer’s circumstances. It will not be possible to require a person to undertake certain activities, such as medical treatment or actual work.
- Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
- In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
- What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
This discussion is now closed. Thank you to all of you who contributed.
I think whatever happens it is very important to take into account the other factors in that person’s life. If a disabled person is already in education, or undertaking voluntry work in the hope of gaining employment and moving them towards the workplace it would be counterproductivbe and tragic for the person if they were forced to take part in something less useful or likely to help them gain work. Disabled people often only have so much energy available for them to do things and if someone is doing 3 hrs a week on a course forcing them to do something else may mean they can’t complete the course and therefore will be set back from the workplace.
Also energy expended on washing, dressing, eating and moving MUST be taken into account, it is no good telling someone they must do something for 10 hours if that will leave them unable to wash or dress – or take care of a child. Equally if a person needs to by lying down to complete tasks of any length – this will need to be taken into account as will the effects of medication/
If once all these factors are taken into account there is very little left seriuos thinking will need to be done about the productive nature of any assignments or conditionality placed on the individual.
If someone is progressing well and has found their own way back into the workplace this should be supported not threatened by anything the placement provider does – even if it is at a slower pace than the provider would like. This is about getting back to some work related activity not about money and targets – or it is worthless.
Nothing that would contradict a medical condition should be asked of the person either.
These changes are nothing to do with getting the long term sick/disabled into proper paid work and everthing to do with taking large amounts of benefit money away from some of the most vulnerable people in society.
I saw several teenage “NEETS” getting drunk outside a supermarket yesterday afternoon. They were making a public nusiance of themselves, riding bikes at high speed behind and around disabled drivers preventing them from reversing out of their spaces etc. Get these lazy scroungers back to work and all the other unemployed without health issues, before bullying the sick and suffering who have enough to cope with just surviving!!! Stop spreading lies about us via the media in order to whip up hatred by the ignorant.
If every person appeals against the WCA decision then this will cost the Government billions above their projection costs. Appeals are expensive so, until they remove The Absolute Right of Appeal, which they will try to do, appeal! You will most likely win and it just may make them think twice about the wisdom of employing ATOS.
I am sitting here shaking. I am petrified about this new test. I can do some of it, but a lot of my issues are mental. I am currently being treated for depression with suicidal thoughts. I don’t seem to be able to concentrate on any thing. i try and read from a Kindle but the words just go in and don’t lodge. I’m not eating properly. I just fear being classed as fit and having my issues being compounded by having to go back to work. I hardly go out of the house, I prefer being somewhere that I feel is safe to me. I think if I am classed as fit, I may do something stupid.
Does anyone know the timetable for areas for the reassessments?
I do agree that the work-related activities should be used flexibly and tailored to the individual’s need ie physical needs, mental needs, medical needs but should be assessed by a medical expert and implemented by a professional trained person otherwise it will have a detromental effect on the health of the individual if forced on a person with a disabled/long term illness.
Quite honestly it is going to cost more money to implement a support system for disabled/long term sick to get them back to work and will be not be fruitful in the long run, I think it best to leave a lone.
And I feel that it is discrimination to employ a company that is being paid to find disabled/long term sick deemed fit to work knowing that this company employ’s nurses or clerks who have little or no experience in disabilities or illness. If it is to be fair then you need an assessement made by a professional ie doctor/consultant and then on their recommendation they should be put into a group and managed by a person who has had training in the disabled sector, Atos needs to employ more professional based staff.
If a doctor/gp/consultants (not a nurse or clerk) recommends that they are able to undertake specific activities then I would agree that it would be appropriate to direct customers.
I dont think there should be consequences at all if in a work-related acitivy when you have a disability, disabilities & illness vary each day which is why you are not working in the first place, no matter how many sactions you impose on a disabled/sick person the outcome is the same the person still has good and bad days, to punish them and to make then feel under pressure to work or attend a work-related activity when they cannot will result in the person having other problems such has stress, panic attacks, mental illness & depression.
If a disabled person feels they can manage a work-related activity and want to join in. To impose consequences would result in taking a persons rights a way and freedom of choice which is a discrimination.
I person who is a geniune case will normally have the back-up of gp & consultants. physio’s, social services these people deal with the person quite often weekly and sometimes daily and should not be ignored, you should take the evidence and support into consideration.
I have just had my second WCA. I ‘failed’ the first one in June last year, was forced to appeal to a tribunal even though I had evidence from my consultant psychiatrist and my GP that I was not fit to work. I waited SEVEN months for the tribunal who granted my appeal. Less than 6 months later I got another ESA50 and had to go for another WCA which again I am told I have ‘failed’ principally because neither the ESA50 and the WCA give adequate descriptors for depression and related mental disorders.
Having read around the subject, this silly idea appears to arise from the opinion of the person who was the principal architect of the ESA system Professor Mansel Aylward. It is further informed by a study that appears to have been funded by the DWP themselves. Both ‘inform’ that ‘work is a cure for depression’.
The Government have been given a vast amount of anecdotal evidence that dismisses this idea as ridiculous but refuse to amend the ESA form or the WCA.
Both WCA’s were incompetently conducted and reported by Atos. On their own admission, both assessors only had registered nurse training without any specialist psychiatric training. In both cases, there were items on the report that simply did not happen in the assessment and others where there was either a relevant examination or a discussion but it was reported as if nothing had been said or done.
In the most recent one, the assessor failed completely to report any of the discussion about my depression, sleep disturbances, lack of concentration, side effects of medication, lack of motivation, inappropriate and violent responses to criticism or unwanted change, walking problems (caused by arthritis in my knee) and suicidal thoughts. All of these were discussed at the WCA and/or were on the ESA50.
She also tossed aside the medical evidence I took along about the original cause of my depression (hypothyroidism), letter from my psychiatrist saying not fit to work and letter from my GP stating side-effects of medication as drowsiness and dozing off during the day, although I very rarely sleep through the night without disturbing dreams or waking and worrying, mostly about my financial situation.
Atos are greed and profit driven.
I had the further stress of having to apply for a crisis loan last week, and will most probably have to go through that again next week – if I don’t just end it all first. What IS the point of carrying on. The DWP are now being deliberately…[truncated by the system]
When oh when will the DWP and ATOS learn that trying to force anyone with depression to do anything will not work but will worsen their depression. They can carry on ignoring all of the information that people post here or send in appeals but by doing that it will not make the situation better for the individuals themselves, for the country and for themselves too. They may reach a stage of realizing that by encouraging and continuing this inhumane system they too might find themselves very depressed, no I don’t mean just having a bad day – I mean being unable to function i.e not go to work, being unable to concentrate for any length of time, unable to enjoy anything. The symptoms of depression can be easily identified but the causes are individual to the person and that needs to be understood and dealt with accordingly – not with a catch all ‘work is the cure’. Yes for many they perhaps will report that work helped them recover from depression and some might even say that it was a good thing that they managed to work when perhaps they didn’t think they were up to it but equally there are stories when that hasn’t been the outcome but people have felt driven to suicide. So how do youdetermine who needs encouragement to work and who needs support to live? You listen to people, to those around them, who know them and to the health care professionals who know them best i.e their GPs, specialists or CPNs. I would not wish to think that I had enough knowledge to give any opinion on anyone’s circumstances in the space of less than 30 mins that is then going to have an outcome on their life circumstances. A mechanic takes longer than that on a car for an MOT and the certificate still says it is no guarantee of roadworthiness but is valid on the day it is tested. How can we treat human beings with less time and care, we can but we do so at the cost of the future of our country. Just because there are millions of people that need support doesn’t mean we should rush through a quick solution, because it wont work, but because there are millions that need support the government need to get it right. Why are they continuing with a system they know is not fit for purpose? To save money? It wont save a penny but will worsen the lives of generations.
Working in the NHS in the 1980s I was witness to the ill thought out cuts that were rushed in to save money. After 18 months it was concluded that no money was saved, patient care was worsened, exacerbating conditions and therefore further drain on healthcare resources and staff morale was weakened. Yes of course the country’s deficit needs considering but not by withdrawing and cutting support from those who really need it.
ATOS are the largest waste of tax-payers money, we have an NHS with qualified people more than able to assess if we are fit for work.
Can they not understand that many are just not able to work even if there were jobs for all.
I totally agree when I contacted ATOS about my medical report stating that it appeared to be about a different person and that the opposite to what I said had been written down I was told, by a customer service manager, ‘It would be a total waste of tax-payers money if we wrote down what people said’ what can you say to that? And there was no way she could resolve the issue for me other than say I could send in a report to complain – it would be nice to be well enough to do that but she did asy I had 2 years to do so, after the stress of going to apppeal etc. etc.
ATOS- they are hell bent on mkaing money at the expense of the customers sent to them via the DWP!! its not about health or benefits anymore, its about a company making money. Where has the general common sense gone, people who are recovering from triple heart bypass being found fit for work!! any doctor/nurse medical proffessional knows thats unrealsistic, but you tick the boxes in the computer for your ATOS medical and hey presto!! your instantly healed!!
Its absolutely ludicrous for a computer to be used in nmedical assessments. Then on top of the the reports we get from the pople who treat or know us, i.e. my GP my consultant my physiotherapist, are all completely ignored, why pay for a health service when you won’t consider the opinion of the proffessionals who work in it!!!!
I wonder if employees of the DWP realise that the “simplification” of the Benefits System will mean that, ultimately, a good many of them will be losing their jobs. If they do then perhaps they may not be so wise as to pursue these policies with quite so much enthusiasm!
I was ill health retired by Occupational Health Doctor for Aberdeenshire Council, applied for ESA and after the 13 weel assessment was sent for medical to Atos who decided I have no limited Capability for work, money was stopped and I appealed, I was awarded 6 points by Atos, the questions are unbelevable, i sugger from Osteo Arthritis, everwhere, am 59 years old have worked all my life, am now registered diabled, if you can walk up two steps with a handraile, put one arm above your head or behind your back, you are considered fit for work, I have never asked foe anything in my life before, shame on the Government.
please disregard bad spelling on my email, was typing without glasses, apart from getting upset at the treatment we all receive
I live in Aberdeenshire and have secondry progressive MS, Colitis, osteo arthritis and fybromialgia. Because of all this i now have severe depression and have seriously throught of suiside because of the changeover from IB to ESA, i cannot understand how ATos staff and a computer system can say i’m fir to work when my GP, Consultant’s, oT, family, ms nurse etc all say i am unfit to work i struggle every minute of every day just to do basic things but under the new ESA i am very frighnted that the say i’m fir for work. this is making my health worse and every day am terrified of the post arriving especially since we are a Test area. I dont think i can go on anymore living with this persicution. i m very scared
To be honest, I really think there is little point in complaining about Welfare Reform (Reform equals cuts). The Tories are so intent upon introducing Social Inequality and Injustice, the like of which has not been seen in this Country since before WWII, they will simply ignore any objections put forward.
The next step of course is the Appeal Procedure will become so overwhelmed by the number of new cases that it will go into meltdown. This will give the Government the perfect excuse to remove the Right to Appeal on the grounds that the system relevant to the new procedures.
Only after a couple of years or so when the number of suicides and other personal tragedies cannot be ignored, even by “hang ‘em high” Tory Press, will the Government be forced recognise the unfairness of the ESA and DLA assessments and their “conditionality”. But even then do not expect any major changes.
They simply do not care. Ill and or disabled people are of no use to them and so are considered expendable. That’s one sure-fire way of reducing the Welfare Bill and smacks of that other great Tory Welfare Reform “Care in the Community” and we all know what a success that has proved to be.
Personally, I think it is disgraceful what the Government are doing. However, I don’t think there are enough loud voices to do anything about it.
All the Government have to do is put out a load of rubbish about people on benefits and the public fall for hook line and sinker.
Joe Public were kidded over Iraq, the miners in the 80s the Argentinian war, the list of propaganda that the gov’t put will always be taken as ‘true’ by the public and when the dust settles and the public see that they have been duped……again, what happens…..they fall for it again and again. So whilst I am certainly opposed to the gov’t and it’s hard line approach against the sick, I don’t see there is any way out. A few letters written here and there will not stop this train in it’s tracks.
That is just how I see things. I used to tell people that A.S was right about what he was saying when he said the Nott’s miners will lose their jobs as well as the Yorks miners, everyone at the time thought that I was as mad as Arthur, but when the Nott’s miners lost their jobs too, what happened? Nothing. Everyone just forgot about being kidded.
History keeps repeating itself.
Sorry for sounding so negative, but I am only speaking from my past experiences against propagandist press and the public.
The whole ethos of the current DWP stance is redolent of a situation where somebody has read Kafka’s works – in particular “The Trial” and “The Castle” – and instead of seeing them as the author intended, as grim warnings of the abuses that can be perpetrated by an overmighty and unaccountable bureaucracy, has instead taken them as some warped “Guide to Good Practice.”
May those currently in positions of power find themselves on the receiving end of these scandalous measures; I somehow think that they would be rather less supportive of them than now.
‘It’s shameful, it’s scandalous and all you workers at the DWP should be protesting at such fascist injustice’
I agree 100% with this writer’s view. I feel persecuted for becoming ill; with an incurable disease which has cost me my career, mobility,social life,financial independence and now,my sanity. Were it not for family charity, which can not continue, I too would probably be forced to become one of the many suicides under this system as I couldn’t cope on the streets. David Cameron should,through incredibly sad personal experience; have compassion for the sick & disabled. Where is the ‘fairness’ in the ATOS computer tick box test? This system is not fit for purpose and is affecting my illness hugely, at a time when I need to fight to regain my health.
I am 56 and worked as much as I can but age 22 was locked up for psychosis and diagnosed manic depressive. ECT stopped me being able to read and my tongue went black. After months of depression and feeling suicidal I threw away the medications and went on to do a degree and later a post grad degree in social work. I carried on working despite being sick a lot of the time but at 36 I again got locked up for being psychotic. Afterwards I could not carry on with my career in social work so I started a computer company from scratch. Gradually this built up into sales and repairs by freelance engineers and then also getting contracts to dispose of old computers which we refurbished and sold on.
This went on until the late 90s when I became psychotic again.
I had delusions that my home had become contaminated with evil forces and I needed to light a lot of candles to clean away the contaminations. I was rushing around in a manic way when I knocked one of the candles over and my home set on fire. I was locked on the psychiatric ward for over a year afterwards and lost everything including my dog, my marriage, my home and my business. When I came out of psychiatric hospital I was homeless and lived on maintenance paid by my husband from whom I was seperated. So even then I wasn’t on benefits but a solicitor had applied for me to get DLA while I was in the hospital and then the divorce court said my ex husband did not have to pay me maintenance so by 2005 for the first time in my life I was on benefits. I kept trying to go back to work but each time I tried I became psychotic again and was put back into psychiatric hospital.
I felt hopeless and the future looked bleak.
Then a disabled ex colleague suggested we share and has been supportive making sure I take my meds and helping me not to get so stressed. But I have developed COPD and am breathless just walking from the living room to the kitchen. I have disturbed sleep.I still get delusions some of the time. I have to try to juggle the meds not to go too high or too low. I rarely go out.
Now I fear all these threats to take the benefits mean you will drive me psychotic again, that my home will burn down again,that the worst will happen.
It is making me paranoid and giving me flashbacks to the fire. I’d be working if I could like I did in the past. I do some online volunteering for a disabled peoples network when I can. That’s as much as I can cope with. Why harrass me to work and drive me mad…[truncated by the system]
“It will not be possible to require a person to undertake certain activities, such as medical treatment or actual work.”
I recall in the last welfare reforms, they actually did try to make legislation so that the DWP could FORCE (with threat of benefit sanctions) a claimaint (sorry customer) to undergo medical treatment or procedures.
That shows how far the government/dwp were willing to go, but thankfully it was dropped by the lords etc last minute during debates/readings.
You do not appear to be telling the situation as it really is either, the 21st century welfare document goes a lot further than the plans on this page.
That contains a small, but worrying, part that says they may impose conditionality (ie undertake activities or get sanctioned) to those in the support group.
Is this just stage one, get people used to the mistreatment of the sick and disabled, before you move on to that stage two, where you force those in the support group (incredibly ill people, some even dying) to risk sanctions because some DWP or third party advisor thought it would be a good idea to make them undertake some activity?
*What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?*
None, see my previous two replies, also :
Should the question not be what will the consequences be if the DWP sanctions someone in this position, or even what will the consequences be for forcing the sick and disabled to undertake any activities?
You could start with worsening of health (especially mental health), extra cost to the NHS, possibly suicides, complete loss of faith in the authorities, anger, mistrust, disolusionment, and a country that shows itself up to the rest of the world as a country that treats its sick and disabled in such a disgusting manner.
In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
None, at all.
See my previous reply for details, as well as the following, as your system only allows a very limited response.
Why does your system allow only a very limited response, that is a means of restricting evidence, as many people have already demonstrated by having their entries truncated and not realising they can compose another reply.
This is not the way to run a online consulatation, and if the DWP cannot even do something this simple – there is no way their should be any circumstances the DWP can be trusted with treating vunerable people like this. (not that it is a good idea to ever do it to people this vunerable, who need help, not ordering around)
That sort of behaviour, ordering the sick and disabled to work / train etc may well have been effective in the Nazi concentration camps, work sets you free as they said, but it has no place in todays society and the DWP and the government should be highly ashamed.
* Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
I do not agree they should be used at all, the question is loaded, ie you have already made your mind up that this is going to happen, so WHAT is the point of this excercise?
It is well known that countless mistakes are made by both the DWP and ATOS when it comes to classifying people as fit to work or not, so they cannot even get that right, what possible hope does this plan have?
How could they even be tailored, when the staff are medically untrained, have no experience or qualifications, and are not in any position at all to be able to tailor the advice?
The advice will likely lead to causing more problems.
Does DWP’s own research not show that mandatory schemes are harmful and counter productive (especially for those with mental health problems?)
The mantra work is good for you is a generic term, that DOES not apply to all.
For some, work is VERY bad for them, and will considerably worsen their condition.
The DWP knows fine well that mandatory training/work etc was a dismal failure (new deal, fnd, etc etc) even for the fit and healthy, so who in their right minds would expect it to be better when applied to the sick/disabled/injured?
ATOS and the DWP spend little time anyway determining if the ‘customer’ is fit for work or not, and that is a life changing decision for the ‘customer’.
So if such little respect for the facts is paid to something that major (and lets be blunt here, ATOS assessors have been known to lie point blank on assessments, corruption is common – this has been proven by many people), how can they possibly expect the DWP or another third party to even know the circumstances of a individual in any depth, in order to tailor the activities?
What about ethics anyway, ATOS displays a clear disgregard for ethical behaviour, and not only that, what is going on with ATOS putting in bids for training / work placements etc for the sick and disabled?
You are telling us that you want
a) ATOS to provide the evidence that finds someone fit/unfit for work.
b) ATOS then profits from providing the activities to those people?
Any sensible person (apart from the DWP and ATOS its seems) can see that raises a MASSIVE conflict of interests.
Now, if you the DWP cannot be trusted to see a major problem like that, dont expect any reasonable person to think you can handle telling…[truncated by the system]
If an ATOS medical examiner, be it a nurse, physio, or DR of some decription finds that a mentally ill person is fit for work, and then that person works and after a while attacks, harms or kills a coworker, then surely the ATOS medical examiner would have to be accountable, wouldn’t they? The same goes for learning disabled and physically disabled people, who in my experience are more likely to have an accident (especially when trying to meet deadlines) at work, due to poor coordination, poor memory, or fits and seizures, which could then exacerbate their original disability, or worst case scenario, could kill them, then surely the ATOS medical examiner and the government that employed them would be accountable for these disabled people being placed at risk in a work situation. Or do the ATOS staff and the government have a ‘get out of jail free card’. The ATOS staff have far too much power, the law is all for them, they will get away with murder. The United Kingdom ratified The United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities on the 8 June 2009, yet disabled peolpe in the UK still have little or no rights.
The following site explains the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
http://www.officefordisability.gov.uk/working/un-convention/
I do not agree with any ‘conditionality’ being imposed on any person, The idea of Work Related Activity for disabled people is by and large ridiculous as in the current economic climate even the able-bodied are not able to find employment.
In short ‘there are no jobs’!!
I have ME. I can go along to the ESA medical and pick up a pen! I can walk down the corridor behind the doctor – I can even climb one set of stairs. What I cannot do is more than about two hours of any activity before I have to rest for a good hour or so. Often longer. I do do voluntary work but only two hours at a time. I am terrified of my ESA medical as I have heard from others with ME that they do not seem to ”get” sickness.
I think these programmes were all put into place considering disability but not sickness. They do not seem to understand that people with chronic conditions may look ok but often spend a great part of their day resting and feeling awful. Also every couple of weeks I get a virus and am in bed for days – who would employe me?
Conditionality is wrong. The ESA is wrong. It is inhumane. The incapacity benefit test was MORE THAN tough enough.
Along with the fatigue and pain and general ‘flu like’ feelings of ME I also suffer with constant nausea and pain in my stomach due to stomach motility issues, asthma and have joint hpyermobility syndrome.
I worked all my life and paid NI stamps and for quite some time higher rate tax – I feel that the state is failing people. NI is a FRAUD if it does not provide a safety net when you need it.
ATOS are a dire company – the DWP should take note of consultants reports. Very few people claiming ESA will not have a specialists report – and that nullify’s the claim about GP’s being ‘bullied’ by patients to sign them off. I doubt specialists consultants are so easily swayed. The whole thing is just an industry now for private providers and it does not take into account the suffering caused to genuinely ill people. It will probably take some terrible tragedy however or a court case for the government to change track.
This seems a reasonable expectation. I do hope that they will be flexible enough to fit in with the abilities of the claimant.
I would also point out that those that fail the ESA medical, should be made to claim JSA whilst awaiting an appeal hearing. At the moment they continue to claim the assessment rate of ESA (same rate as JSA) and do nothing for it. Having already been found fit for work, they should be treated no different than any other JSA claimant that is until the Tribunal rule on the decision.
That is an irrelevant scenario.
The costs are the same, as you stated.
The appeal for ESA would happen before the JSA sanctions or complaince are called into play.
Claiming JSA involves signing on once every two weeks.
Claiming ESA and appealing for ESA involves much form filling, delays in payments, a medical and then a tribunal etc, which takes a lot more effort than registering unemployed.
If the sick were not sick, and certified as such by their doctors, then why would they pursue the (much more exhausting and no more financially attractive)ESA option?
I repeat, these are people who are considered and certified too ill to work by their doctors, and often have consultants and specialists, and repeated visits and treatments to medical centres.
You would not attempt to get ESA if you didn’t need it, and your doctor didn’t believe you were too ill to work.
People are only failing the ESA because ATOS are paid to fail a percentage of people, and the test they use is not a test of “wellness” to work, but basic functioning capability.
The person who conducts the computer based medical test may not even be a doctor.
Andy and Flo, have you never had a days sickness from work in your entire lives?
If you haven’t then you are either very lucky, or you have gone into work feeling ill, performed below par, and thus defrauded your employer of a complete days work.
I hope your excellent health continues. You are very fortunate.
I too hope that the conditionality is flexible enough to fit in with my abilities, which are;
Being awake for sometimes up to 2 hours;
Usually being able to hear and speak, though it varies unpredictably;
Usually remaining clean and dry, though not always;
Able to walk distances without support, though sometimes needing a wheelchair, and quite often falling over.
I wont go on, I am not sure my reality is something you can appreciate.
Found fit for work by ATOS whilst being found unfit for work by your own doctor, specialist and consultant.
No, JSA would not be suitable, as the peron is not eligable for work, and therefore not eligable for JSA.
It seems you have never spoken to anyone who has been through the ESA system. I could barely apply for it when I was incapacitated, my GP had signed me as unfit for work with which my CPN agreed. Both are health care professionals employed in the NHS paid for through our government. But why are they being paid? Because, according to ATOS personnel, they along with many other GPs, specialists etc are making wrong decisions. I had no choice but to appeal as I am not fit to work, forcing me to claim JSA, as you say, would mean me denying my inability and incapacity, which I would gladly do if in doing so I would become well – but I can’t and I wouldn’t. I had already been found unfit for work yet an ATOS Dr thought that he was able to assess my inability/incapacity in 28 mins but wasn’t even interested to know about my medication or its side effects even though you are requested to take these to your medical, he knows me better than my GP and CPN? I had no option but appeal if I want to keep a roof over my head – if I am forced onto the streets I would not survive. A tick box computer system that puts people into boxes is unable to realize that most people don’t fit into boxes until it’s their coffin. They say a computer programme is only as good as those who design it – say no more. I hope Andy and Flo that you never fall ill causing you to need to apply for ESA because I assure you it wont help whatever your condition. Listening to someone else’s experience is one thing but experiencing it as your reality is quite another, but please do listen to what many, many thousands of people are saying. ATOS personnel have justified to me what they are doing by saying they are doing it on behalf of the DWP – so that makes it right?
For “conditionality” read “more reasons to be able to cut or suspend Benefit”. Ill and or disabled people can find it difficult to attend courses and lectures but if they do not attend, guess what, benefits cut or suspended.
Another stick to beat the defenceless with.
I have schizophrenia and when I am ill, I am very ill indeed for a while, and then it takes me a long time to get back to “normal” (still fragile). My illness is definitely linked to stress. The more anxious I feel, the more likely I am to relapse.
I have worked all my life as much as I am able to (half time, and claim tax credits) but have had to have long periods off work sick, the last one being since August 2009, returning to work 3 weeks ago. Several months of this time was spent in hospital.
Meanwhile my statutory sick pay ran out, and I have had to claim ESA (although I have not yet submitted the form). The thought of the interview process and the need to attend job-seeking interviews makes me feel sick, and I am very glad that I am now well enough to go back to work. I am sure that the conditionality process would exacerbate my illness and probably lead to a much longer stay in hospital. This is WRONG.
It appears that the Government and the past Government are obliged to to pay private firms as this does get better results for the benefits system.
This is obviously no good for the claimants as profit could be the motive why some people do not pass the WCA Medical and end up in the WFI Group even though some of these people are obviously to sick to work but also the organisation employed by the Government to carry out this work of work focused relativity are also private companies and mall Non Profit Organisations that do get paid on the from Government funds ie: the tax payer’s of this country. So Profit could well be the motive here also as they do have to stay in business also you could i dare say you could it a processing plant to get people off of benefits that the DWP and ATOS think should work. this is not good news for people with a wide range of illnesses that do affect their lives and make it impossible for them to work in a normal environment and job. If sick people do eventually get sent to JSA obviously it would be impossible for them to get gainful employment as they are to sick and companies are not willing to take sick people on (catch 22 for genuinely sick people. So the question I ask myself really is who thought up system and what did they have in mind when devising it was it to help sick people or not or was it just a device to get as many people of benefits as possible I would love the answer to this I really would I do understand there are nice people and hard hearted people out their that might read this reply but a genuine answer would really go a long way to understanding such a system that clearly is upsetting so many people of this country.
The amount that’s being paid to Atos, I can’t see how the system is cost effective, especially given the number of successful appeals. All the rhetoric is skew-whiff anyway – there’s already conditionality on JSA and applying for ESA is incredibly hard. I wish I could answer your question properly, but all I can say is that there must be something big going on here that we’re not being told about. Perhaps the ideology secretly shared by those in power is just a lot further right than they want us to find out.
The jobs Im capable of doing are few..
those I could consider would require me to be able to do a professional qualification in counselling or something similar at a local college Ive done preparatory courses before i was disabled already paid by me so I would be committed were I given the chance. Last time I enquired about doing it I was told id not be helped to pay for this course tho if I could do it I could probably be self supporting because I could plan my hours carefully so that I could do sufficient hours .
I suspect this will remain the case and that most training etc will be for things I couldnt do .. telling me I have to would be just silly because I couldnt and not only would it be pointless itd also be a waste of money.
It is vital if training is compulsory that the range of things people are offered is much wider and includes something for everyone from the executives, those from the professions through to the less skilled and non skilled.
I find it strange that this government, is objecting to Dr,s. My Doctor signed me off work, after completing 43 years, suffering from diabetes for 54 years have had a 4 way bypass operation but still tried to work … then unfortunately the onset of severe neuropathy, and the trouble I have with my diabetes, which I say is under fair control. My GP said it was in his opinion that to carry on working could be of detriment. so taking his advise and that of the local Disablement Resettlement Officer, I applied for the necessary benefit. This was given after my DR. signed the necessary form.
NOw I find it hard this so called caring government, have given, or in the process of giving the Dr’s more control over local primary care trusts. Then why if they are to be given that role, should they not give and have accepted their conclusions and diagnosis of their patients unable to work because of a disability.
When I left school because of my illness, I could only get a job where the money was less or they wanted to use my disability, for getting them accepted under the ruling that a certain amount of people with a disability should be employed. I believe at the time that was 5% of the workforce, something that was never achieved.
So stop picking on the disabled, and listen to their own GPs, or hospitals who have a better knowledge of their patience and not ones from an outside agency who will have a pass and reject figure to reach. Every ones illness or disability is different form someone suffering the same illness or disability. No one person is the same only the illness name and not the outcome
Typing error should read patients and not patience which is what I am beginning to loose under this governments outrageous and short sighted schemes
I am trapped in this ESA system which seems to be a muddled mess of unhelpful rubbish. I suffer from peripheral neuropathy with fluctuating symptoms. Having worked all my life I was experiencing more and more painful episodes whereby I could not walk or use my hands and arms due to either numbness or severe pain. With these symptoms and the high doses of pain relief I take daily I thought I may get some help from the goverment through this.
I saw my dr who wrote me numerous sick notes and attended the famouse ATOS medical. I took a folder of all my hospital specialist reports which show how much feeling I have in my legs and arms. This showed extremely limited movement and the letter from the neurologist consultant stated that returning to work would make my condition worse and he wrote a very detailed report.
The ATOS assessor would not read the reports, hardly spoke English and looked at the computer screen the whole time. He did not want to see my carrier bag full of medication I had been told to bring to the interview. I actually fell over in the interview room and stuggled to get to my feet without assisstance as he just carried on asking me irrelevant questions.
I was found FIT for work. I ended claiming JSA although my local job centre tell me I should not be claiming it as I am too ill and they do not have any jobs suitable for me and a sick note from my GP stating I should not work for a year. The job centre say there is nothing they can do to help me if the ATOS computer says you can work they can not change it. So Iam left signing on stating I am fit for work when I know I AM NOT. This system needs to look at all the medical information from professionals involved in your care. It also needs to take into account conditions which fluctuate in severity.
I feel extremely let down. I am not workshy, I am not a scrounger. I have brought two children up who went to college to get qualifications and who work full time. I cringe having to go into the job centre as the media and government have portrayed anyone claiming any form of benefits as crooks, junkies or lazy. I am just ill and needed some help. Why did I pay all my tax? Where is Mr Camerons ‘Fairness for All’ for me
A little background before I answer the questions:
I keep saying this every time something like this comes up, but it’s very relevant because sadly I am a very long way from being alone. My mental health problems are a direct result of psychological and sexual abuse in childhood, and being raped more than once between the ages of 19 and 21. I am little use at the moment due to problems with memory, concentration, tiredness, flashbacks etc. Day to day I deal with this by working on recovering, looking to the future, and of course the all-important “staying positive”. But in regards to work, not only do I have all these functional problems, but huge relapses are triggered by other people having power over me or control over my everyday life. If I am obliged to keep any regular appointment, even once a fortnight, in order to keep my means of living, I race through self-harm to being suicidal alarmingly quickly. Not everyone with my experiences will feel like this, of course, but plenty will. It’s been estimated that around half of those seeking psychiatric help of any kind have some history of sexual abuse. I answer these questions as they relate to those of us in that position.
# Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
Unless it is *absolutely certain* that a person could return to work with the right support, “powers” MUST NOT BE USED. It could cause massive damage. As for being tailored, they should be used only by highly qualified staff and only after a lengthly period of staff getting to know the individual. Everyone must also have the right to change advisor, to appeal and to lodge complaints.
# In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
Again, only when absolutely certain that it will be of help, and the individual *must* have the right to challenge an instruction.
# What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
I refer you to CR’s answer. Herein lies the problem with all of this. You, the Department of Work and Pensions, are talking about this as if the majority of sick and disabled people need encouraging into work. You know full well that there are very, very few fraudulent claims on Incapacity Benefit and ESA.
To be continued…
You are starting from the position of seeing most sick and disabled as “underachieving”, or “lazy”, or lacking in confidence. Perhaps you don’t realise how much it takes most of us to just get up in the morning. I may not have paid employment, but I tell you one thing – I cannot remember the last time I had a day off. Perhaps I’ve never had one in my life. I am not alone in this, really I’m not.
I would also like to say, since I’m here, people know when they’re not fit for work. It is, true to say, not a nice feeling. You’re right, it doesn’t exactly foster self-respect. So forcing people who have in many cases already been through absolute hell to fight for months and months for recognition of their lack of ability is, quite frankly, an insult. Please sort out the claims before continuing with these plans.
A well thought out reply Als, thy obviously think that disability is like have a cold/flu, and you will be alright the next day/week mind you, like you say they do not have to suffer the indignities a lot of disable people do..
I think this is disgusting. You should not put any pressure on disabled people to work. Leave the disabled alone!
This coalition is getting absolutely obsessed with attacking very ill people. Stop it.
Tax the super rich more, they wont miss it and it will make a huge difference to the economy. Stop going after the poorest and weakest members of our society like a bunch of rabid hyenas!
I have been a type 1 diabetic for over 54 years having worked for 43 years of my life, but lets be honest, not all diabetics are the same they have different conditions caused by this illness. However having stated that I worked all those years, I had a 4 way bypass done ,after this I continued to work, unfortunately the onset of severe neuropathy made it impossible for me to continue working so had to retire on ill health grounds. Those people who have an illness irrespective of what their conditions are or their capabilities should be made by their own doctors, local or hospital. You aim to give GPs a bigger say in the use of NHS funds to administer care and hospitalisation, then go on and change the rules as fits yourselves, by not trusting the Dr’s diagnosis. Having stated that people need to go before a board of either Dr’s or nurses under the rulings which can only be made as a universal directorship, thus not dealing with the individuals state of health or how it would and does affect them.
Conclusion… let the persons own GP’s decide if the person is or is not capable of work. Stop messing with people who genuinely have a disability.
As has been pointed out by many a poster, there are not the jobs to go to, and if there were, then it would be like the time I first started looking for employment, you either get paid a lower rate or are used as a statistic in the provision of employing disabled person or percentage of.
This new way of dealing with people who have a legitimate claim is nothing short of condemning people to do what they are incapable of doing.
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Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
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“Powers”…. mmmmn, I wonder what that means?
I think the whole system should be both flexible and “tailored to the circumstances of the individual”. But if the system in its entirety is a computer operator, paid by “outcomes”, inadequately qualified, and using the LIMA software without automatic reference to the individual’s medical advisers, then that’s not going to be flexible or tailored. It’s like fixing a roulette table.
It’s shameful, it’s scandalous and all you workers at the DWP should be protesting at such fascist injustice.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
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When you are 100% certain they are making a fraudulent claim.
It’s not your business to direct sick people how to mange their restricted lives.
These questions are phrased in such elliptical language they are impossible to answer in any meaningful way.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
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Fails how? They haven’t turned up…. because they have committed suicide? There will be suicides, many people are already in profoundly deep despair, much deeper than before these proposals were first mentioned. Would that be a good enough cause??
How about forcibly drugging them? How about internment? Hard labour?
How about Black Triangles?
? ?…[truncated by the system]
Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
I do agree that they should but it is not being delivered. You should have thought about this before cutting benefits and forcing people into suicide.
In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
When you have written and clear instruction from the person’s Psychiatrist or doctor . Not Untrained people.
What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
Then they should be reassessed by their own Doctor’s . This is for trained people and not franchised to outsiders. Not cost effective and not detrimental to anyone’s health
Why are we even being asked these questions? The WCA is not fit for purpose, as the citizens’ advice bureau will tell you. Since this whole system is based on the WCA, the DWP needs to go back to the drawing board. It is not right to tell chronically sick people, whose GPs and consultants agree that they are very unwell, that they can prepare for work when that assertion is based on a crude and simplistic test which merely establishes that they can do a series of physical actions just once. It takes no account of the pain that carrying out those actions may cause, and does not allow that for some people the business of getting up each day and simply taking care of themselves is as much as they can do. If you have ME/CFS/FMS and are awaiting a WCA, heaven help you because the DWP will not. Incidentally, I wonder why so much money is being thrown at getting the sick and disabled into work when there are 2.5 million unemployed in this country and most of them are well. Why isn’t the focus on preparing these people for work and helping them to hold down a job? If the DWP were putting money into support in the workplace for sick and disabled people, then I might believe the spin, but they are not. Conditionality? Absolutely not, it’s a disgusting way to treat a sick person.
what i would like to know is why people are classed as fit to work when hey are not,and i think we should all get money back from the taxes we pay,in insurace that fail to provide for us as it should.most people ill or disabed should be left alone if they cant work.and assesment should be by people how understand disability,and were are all the jobs for the disabled. and will employers emplys disabled people who cant get into work every day.no they wont will thay.
O just to add to my last comment you stopped all my monies including Mid Rate DLA for several months now. As a result i can’t get medication. Maybe it’s time a statment was made.
If someone is considered unfit to work, then it is highly likely that ‘ requiring’ them to undertake ‘ work relatef activity’ is also inappropriate, and should only be required when their GP ( NOT some DWP quasi-medical and commercially motivated ‘ assessor’) can sign a certificate specifying what they are fit to do. It is obvious to me how much distrust there is in ATOS, and with good reason,so I hope that is one of the first things you will deal with incidentally.
ATOS and the NI SSA need to employ specialist medic to assess individuals. Currently too many people are being forced into the work group, or even off ESA altogether, causing them even greater distress, in turn decreasing their likelihood of being able to work.
Additionally, people with anxiety issues and other mental health problems need to be shown understanding in the unlikely even that they are genuinely capable of bring put into the work group. Group activities are very difficult for such individuals and to this end one-to-one meetings with their DWP / DEL advisors are a necessity.
The entire system is weighted to make the majority of claimants look like benefit cheats, which is dispicable and hideously degrading. Doctors and other employees need to be clear that just because a disability may be hidden, it does not mean it is faked or exaggerated.
“Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?”
I agree but want to emphasis that people need to be assessed properly by appropriately qualified medical staff, including the claimant’s GPs, specialist nurses and consultants. The level of successful appeals against DWP decisions is outrageous and indicative of the many failings of current assessment arrangements.
“In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?”
Where a proper assessment, including evidence from the claimants GP, specialist nurses and consultants, indicates that the claimant is able to take part in the targeted activity.
Should a clients condition change then the requirement to take part in activities must be reviewed appropriately.
“What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?” Reductions in benefits may be appropriate but this must only happen when the claimants GP and other medical professionals conclude that the claimant is capable of performing the tasks.
Overall I feel that the assessments should be based upon the opinions of medical professionals who know the claimant well. Many people find it difficult to talk about their condition and often understate their difficulties especially when quizzed by a stranger in an unfamiliar location.
All capability assesments should be carried out by doctors p[referably NOT employed by a company paid to get people back to work and/or paid by results.
“National Insurance benefits” should be paid as a right without condition. the only condition that could be morally placed on benefiots could be that sufficient premiums or contributions have been paid. I fear greatly for the safety of my step daughter who has a severe mental illness and was in an exempt category but is now very frightened by what she hears on the news and reads in the newspapers, and by the continual demonization of claimants by members of the coalition and in the press.
No, the test to qualify for ESA is so hard that most people in the WRAG will be quite unwell. Any force or power used against them is inhumane !! Lots of encouragement and opportunities need to be offered.
Scrap the “work capability assessment”, which is blatantly totally unfit for purpose and carry out proper psychometric testing of claimants.
(This used to be done from 1916 until the late 1980s.)
Such tests determine if a claimant is unfit for work or not.
If they could work if given training and/or education.
(Not a the current quick fix training education solutions.)
If they could work if the workplace was modified for any disability problems.
I do not think that conditionality for people who are, or have been, ill is fair, because everyone’s situation is different. There are many factors involved when trying to decide whether a job is going to be right for you if you have been ill, and far from the government trying to impose condititionality, people should have the right to go back on the benefit they came off if, after having tried the job, it is found unsuitable.
The WCA and ATOS healthcare need to be sorted out first to make sure the correct people are put into the WRAG in the first place as many being put on JSA I have been placed in the WRAG and I think that it is incorrect I have had part of my brain amputated leaving me with balance and co’ordination problems my left side does not work corectly I also have an inoperable brain tumour the survival time for somone with my condition after treatment is 2-3 years I was treated in 2005 and yet i was advised a return to work advised at 18 months If I am in the wrong group and I belive it is comonplace then the system will not work needs in this group should be assessed individually as a safety net for those who should be in the support group
There should be no consequences if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement until the basics are sorted out even then some may slip through the net there cannot be sanctions unless the system is working 100% and the right people are in that group as at present it clearly is not, even if it were working as it should there should be some power given to the assesors at the jobcentres if someone falls through the net, so they can quickly report and put the claiment in the correct group quickly and eficently saving stress to the recipient and jobcentre staff
On the subject of conditionality, I’d like to say a few words on the subject from a personal point of view. I am an Aspie – an Asperger’s syndrome person – and I find “mainstream” provision of just about anything, from my earliest years of education on up, fundamentally unsuitable for me. So much so that at the age of thirteen I was “ascertained maladjusted,” as they had it in those days, and referred to a “residential special school for maladjusted children.”
Others might view such a thing with horror, but I found that school a lifesaver; it gave me what I needed – structure, routine, stability, predictability, all things that Aspies have a deep need for.
I cannot see that the kind of activities being proposed here, being “mainstream-oriented,” would meet my needs at all. Previous posters have made the point that decisions such as those to compel someone to undertake a particular activity – no matter what that activity may be – should in no way be undertaken by lay persons; the important point has also been made that the individual best knows what is and is not within their compass, with very few exceptions (which need the careful handling of experts in the relevant fields, something which is in extremely short and time-delayed supply).
I endorse the points that previous posters have made. These powers, if exercised in a just and above all a safe manner, would cost more to implement than would be saved to the public purse by so doing – the needed expertise does not come cheap, and I cannot see such additional public expenditure being entertained in a climate that will make Thatcher’s cuts look like a vicarage tea party.
That makes me afraid – more than that, it makes me very afraid. I don’t believe that these powers will be allowed to lie idle, nor do I believe that they will be implemented in a just, fair, and safe manner; given the situation vis-a-vis the continuing use of the utterly discredited DWP/Atos “LiMA” system, despite the mounting evidence against it, I don’t believe that the DWP holds at its heart the best interests of those amongst the most disadvantaged (for various reasons) in our society.
Shame on them.
You can call me disabled, patient and vulnerable. This is not about us having support its not about fairness or even justices, it about SAVING MONEY.and using us as the scapegoats, Why are we being treated as criminals. Its not benifits that need reforming its people need educating.Who will employe me in a job thats is meaningful and a living wage and give me flexiblty??? As l belive most company are thier to make money.Yes we have equally laws but lets face it unless you have a swiss bank account and can prove discrimination.The goverment have on agenda and it is not about fairness or justice. May be we could be sent to Switzerland just look at the long term savings
Surely it should be up to the sick or disabled person and their own doctor to know if they are fit for work or not. It should not be the decision of a ATOS rep to decide this. Many disabled people would like to work, but that doesn’t mean they can work. Why put the genuine majority through these burning hoops when it would be clear to most people that they are cruel and designed to place people on lesser benefits and not content with that make their lives which are hard enough unbearable……………….
The WCA should be done by a persons health professionals. There should be no conditionality attached to recieving benefits. Each individual and their health care team are best placed to assess if and when a person should seek help to return to work or to start to work. Compulsion and conditions will exacerbate health issues. Certainly a computer programme is not at all qualified to assess each individuals very individual issues and circumstances. Conditions are also very often variable, or progressive, or can easily lead to mental health issues developing if an individual is placed under undue stress. Yes give help to those who think they can try to work. Give it unconditionally. Give help to those thousands of unpaid carers who silently support many disabled people in their daily lives and enable those people to live relatively independent lives. Dont punish people for their misfortune.
If this country cannot find the compassion to treat their sick and disabled people in a humane way then what hope for the so called “big society”? Yes people who are ill and people with disabilities often want to contribute and often do. But they cant do it with conditions attached because that does not reflect the lives they are trying to live——— the illnesses and disabilities they are trying to live with.
I worked until two and half years ago at one time doing three jobs. I had to retire on ill health and suffer from fibromyalgia, spondylitus and other conditions.
I believe that most people that are disabled and not able to work due to chronic pain would find it very difficult to find an employer who would be prepared to take you on due to the way the conditions effect people on a day to day basis.
Many of us are not able to do activities as it would just aggravate our conditions and make it worse. I just want any assessment that takes place to be fair and all my medical problems to be considered be given the right result for me as an individual.
The people I know who suffer chronic pain conditions are genuine cases who want to be assessed fairly. I would certainly have still being working in my part time job if I could have managed to work for my employer without constantly being to ill to go in letting my other work colleagues down by my absence.
I believe if the any individual does not comply with work related activities in the first instance it should be ensured they had been placed in the correct group. If it is correct then the only option would be a cut in benefit. Genuine disabled people do the best they can depending on capabilities.
I have been a Green Party member since late 2005, attracted largely by the lack of conditionality in Green Party Citizen’s Income policy. I believe that the levels of conditionality imposed on claimants in the Welfare Reform Act 2009 amount to imposition of slavery with decreased bargaining power for both ‘the jobless’ and waged workers.
I am in the process of completing my second ESA50 questionnaire. I won my tribunal on 16 December 2009. I had not aimed to go into the ‘Support Group’, but that was what the tribunal put me into and I have felt much more at ease as a consequence while being of ENTIRELY voluntary service.
By contrast, the ATOS Origin ‘Approved Healthcare Practitioner’ who conducted my first ‘Work Capability Assessment’ in cahoots with some decision maker in the DWP had scored me zero eligibility points and drew a complete veil over my ‘occupational history’ up to the waged work as support worker to adults with learning difficulties that I left four years ago. In fact, in terms of COMPETITIVELY recruited WAGED employment, I had only had a cumulative total of 17 months waged employment since November 1977!
In the course of my last waged employment I had remained signing-on, completing part-time earnings forms. In the process I witnessed JobCentre Plus overload in not topping up my part-time earnings for several months. And even then, I was only allowed to keep the first £5 of earnings per week, and JSA told the council’s housing and council tax benefits people that I was no longer automatically entitled to housing and council tax benefits!
In the end, the conditionality of being a JSA claimant had made me too desperate to ‘try anything’ to attempt to raise my decades long miserable income. I would have been much better off, as I have been lately, volunteering at supporting disadvantaged learners in basic computing skills as a slower learner myself on disability-top-up money.
Now with the conditionality of having to re-apply for ESA, I am a person who has been abused, now being forced by law to face the same abusers, with them in control. All this has added to my stress levels to the point that I woke with lower back pain less than two weeks after being summonsed to complete the second ESA50 Employment & Support Allowance Questionnaire, and have thus been slowed down even more than my disability-based slowness at executing tasks would warrant on its own.
I channel my rage constructively by speaking out to…[truncated by the system]
I would like to say that looking for work if you have a severe and enduring illness or disability is not the same as looking for work if you are fit. You have to think about how your condition may get worse with stress. You have to think about how you will cope with your condition. You have to be aware that the job market is competitive and the employer and the other employees will have issues if your condition presents real problems.
This is extremely comlex, stressful and difficult to negotiate and ‘conditionality’ is another stres that you do not need.
People with severe conditions should be offered a safe place with unconditional benefits and with all the back to work help they want on request. ESA as currently structured does not offer this. It offers the ’support’ group where you are written off and the ‘work ready activity group’ where you are expected to get back to work and are subject to ‘conditionality’. All people with severe disability need a safe place in the middle where there is no conditionality but lots of help if you want it. While WCA is dividing people between two inappropriate groups it can never work. ESA could be such a positive thing for disabled people if it was restructured to provide help without fear.
Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
I don’t think ‘conditionality’ is ever appropriate for severely disabed people. No disabled person shoudl be written off and no disabled person should be sanctioned. Life is too difficult for disabled people for officials to be able to sanction them.
In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
No sverely disabled person should be made to do anything. They may have aspired to do something and wanted to have a go and then find it too difficult. If there are sanctions they won’t have the courage to try.
What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
Disability may always be good cause and the disabled person will be the best judge of what can be achieved not an official. Especially in the case of mental illness where the illness may always be the cause of the non compliance. The whole idea of conditionality – sanctions – threats on any kind around severe disability is cruel and counter productive. The DWP has to accept that illness causes problems…[truncated by the system]
These “powers” shouldn’t exist until the WCA (work capability assesment) is carried out by doctors or atleast a nurse that has some experience with disabilities. As far as I am aware the WCA is carried out by “medical professionals” working for a private company called ATOS. From some experiences I’v heard of from disabled peers these “professionals” can infact be midwives or similar, whose only experience with disability is a small amount of training provided by ATOS themselves. What makes this more worrying is that the professionals opinion overrides your own GPs completely if you appeal their decision via the DWP.
The people conducting the assesment put the information they have gathered into a computer system called LiMA, which as far as I am aware automatically creates the reports which get sent to the decision makers. Not much information is available on the computer system because it is covered by some corporate secrets act which lets them refuse freedom of information requests. The professional conducting the test can override the computer and put in extra information, however as far as I have heard this is discouraged.
Until these tests are conducted in a more humane fashion and are judged on what they are capable of by a human being, it will be highly inappropriate to direct your “customers” to do any sort of activities. It would also be wrong to punish people for being unable to do these activities.
As far as I am aware incapacity benefit was judged by actual doctors employed by the DWP. Why does a private company have the authority to tell if a person is fit to work? When afew years before these people were found unfit to work by actual doctors. I have no problems with encouraging people with impairments into work and helping them out, but make sure the reports are carried out by people with actual experience in these matters or all you will be doing is hurting them and making their lives harder than they need to be or already are.
The so called customer should be assessed by medic’s whom have knowledge of the customer’s medical condition ie,the mentally ill customer should be assessed by a doctor with a relevant qualification in mental health.the physically ill customer should be assessed by a doctor with a relevent qualification in physical health.Mistake’s are being made because of poor assessment’s by atos health care (40% sucsess rate at appeal),this is an outrageous waste of tax payers money.If the dwp is not listening to the customer’s gp,consultant,I can only conclude that the dwp is not listening to the customer also this atos exercise is about one thing only saving money, not about customer’s welfare.Time to change.
Thank you for putting into words what i have been trying to say the whole changeover is so scary i am so worried about this i have ms and other conditions, have been so unsettled be this issue cant sleep condition worsining even thought of ending it all as i feel persicuted for being disabled
Having brushed past conditionality while claiming JSA before being transferred to ESA, I would be extremely concerned if it was applied in the same unprofessional manner to ESA claimants in the WRAG. Communications starting with a contemptuous “You must attend this interview or your benefits may be stopped”, without even the courtesy of a Dear Sir, will alienate every recipient and significantly distress many disabled people with disabilities which leave them poorly able to deal with stress or apparent authority figures. Unless conditionality is applied sensitively and in a manner responsive to the nature of the particular claimant’s disability then it will amount to harassment and intimidation.
Equally Work Related Activity must pay due attention to the disability of the individual claimant. If I expect to need considerable assistance from Access to Work to provide me with a feasible working environment and considerable flexibility/reasonable adjustments from my management with regard to working conditions, hours and breaks, then I expect similar consideration from JCP or their agents WRT any Work Related Activity, if that assistance is not provided then how can I be expected to carry out the activity? Equally the activities must be relevant and facilities accessible. Every activity suggested to date by JCP has been something covered in greater depth during my outplacement, every facility I have been asked to attend has failed to meet basic accessibilty standards such as having on-site disabled parking and level access. More worryingly, only one member of JCP staff I have had contact with, out of perhaps two dozen, appeared to have any sort of understanding of disability. It was unlikely to be a coincidence that she was herself disabled. It is vital that JCP and agency staff dealing with disabled claimants develop an informed understanding of disability and the many non-obvious ways in which it may affect a claimant’s ability to do what is being asked of them. Unfortunately my experiences to date lead me to believe that this is unlikely to happen.
I didnt seem to fall into any category due to my illness being covered up by the dr medicating me 10yrs, an addictive drug that caused me to ‘dysfunction’ mentally & physcally (so much so i became a hypersomniac) , im in hell reducing the evil poison as the slow way is the quick way cz too fast induces mania, violence, suicide etc. But hey! The descriptors i ‘can’ do! so esa is taken away- no dr would back me up (over a year b4 i got one thats willing to but mainly bcause im with documents of medicinal verification) what Atos did to me? Lied & omitted to add any info of my medication. £80m is what these liars cost the gov to bully thd week/meek. Well take note, of the biblical prophecy quote
I agree with others’ comments.
All items should be tailored to the individual, and their qualification level, etc, including long-term goals, especially when full-time work is not an option, as Cate says.
If a ‘customer’ identifies a particular skills gap, then suggesting suitable activity to help might be appropriate, but forcing people to do unsuitable tasks that will not have any advantage is not appropriate. The willingness of employers to give people suitable jobs must also be addressed, as Tim says.
Failure to complete WRA should trigger an assessment to see if a person should be in the support group, as David says, and “Good Cause” needs to be very carefully defined (with right of appeal, as Neil says) so as not to exclude and create more problems for people who are already struggling.
in fact in many other peoples view
to say thet you’ve added this topic quite a period after the other topics totally depicts the type of nebulous despicable underhanded type of organisation you truly are
Incidentally i fully agree with what CR has written above
I agree totally with CR. In theory the WRAG and Support group criteria sound very commendable, however, the experiences of people going through the system of ESA does not follow in practice. It’s no good having a system which purports to ’support’ people when it fails to listen to them or properly assess them. I really hope the ‘powers that be’ listen to the opinions voiced in this discussion and act on what’s being said. By ignoring the fact that some people are ‘chronically ill’ and unable to work doesn’t, unfortunately, make those people miraculously well. Instead they feel their pressures are added to and not relieved thereby putting more pressure on whatever support network of family and friends that they do have. Being required to write a CV when you know you are not in a position to offer an employer consistency of turning up each day because of the nature of your condition does not enhance one’s self esteem and does not focus on what someone can do but on what they have been able to do in the past. Thank you CR for expressing it very well.
I dont agree that claimants should be forced to undertake these activities. The very reason a claimant is claiming ESA in the first place is because they are ill. These claimants will already have been signed off sick by their GP or consultant and been through the medical assessment which will have confirmed that they are ill so why should it be left up to a jobcentre advisor (who is not medically trained) to decide when someone is or is not able to undertake extra activities. Speaking from my own experience, getting to the jobcentre for WFI was hard enough but I made sure I got there just because i was afraid of my benefits being stopped and not because i was well enough – surely this is wrong. The activities that were offered to me were irrelevant because i was already getting these things (such as physio, counselling, condition management)via my GP or hospital consultant and other activities like CV writing were not relevant because I technically was no out of work I was long term sick and still had a job to go back to.
The only circumstance in which claimants should be directed to these activities is when they have indicated that they are able to do so. After all, only they know how their illnesses affect them.
would the coalition and dwp ministers please take note of CRs comments above.
It`s the most sensible piece of writing that I`ve read regarding the benefit reforms and wca.
1) Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
Yes, but it must be recognised that there are some people who will never be able to undertake regular work and others who can maintain only a very few hours each week (who will not be able to increase hours at a later date). These people are NOT all “ill” and are NOT going to “recover”, they are disabled and permanently unable to work.
2) In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
Only when it is clear from interviews with the “customer”, their medical team and any other support workers that the activities are likely to be beneficial to the customer. Making people fill out dozens of applications for unsuitable/ unsustainable jobs is not a sensible use of anybody’s time or money and will not result in getting people into employment.
3) What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
“Good cause” will have to include allowing for variable conditions – many people have conditions which cause pain/ fatigue/ confusion which can vary from hour to hour and be wildly different from day to day. It is not always reasonable to say “You could do that last week, so you can do it again this week.”
If there genuinely is no good cause after a proper investigation, additional interviews and increased demands for work-related activity may be applied.
Work-related activity powers should always be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual. However, Job Centre advisors, private Work Programme providers and ATOS assessors are *not* qualified to make these decisions. The only people who might be able to use such overwhelming power without risking the ESA claimant’s safety and wellbeing are properly qualified rehabilitation specialists with a full staff of occupational health personnel to support them.
There should be no possibility of compelling an ESA claimant to undertake a specific activity unless that activity has been approved by the aforementioned rehabilitation specialists. In addition, the claimant must be given the chance to raise any objections they might have, as they will know the effect of their condition on their capabilities better than anyone else.
If the claimant does raise an objection to an activity, they should not be required to undertake that activity until the rehabilitation specialist has provided a detailed explanation of why the claimant can in fact perform that activity without compromising their safety and wellbeing. Simply stating that “the claimant is underestimating their capabilities” is not enough.
If the claimant fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause, and all avenues of appeal have been exhausted, then reducing or removing their benefit may be appropriate. However, the claimant must first have the right to have their capabilities reassessed by a second rehabilitation specialist who has no connection whatsoever with the specialist who performed the original assessment.
Should the claimant disagree with the second assessment, they should be allowed to have a third assessment from a qualified rehabilitation specialist of their own choice, at their own cost, and that assessment should be introduced to the appeal process as equally valid evidence.
Finally, if a duly qualified medical professional – such as an NHS consultant – believes that their patient’s health would be at risk from a proposed activity, their statement to that effect should be enough to exempt their patient from that activity.
To reiterate: no claimant should ever be subjected to sanctions until all of their avenues of appeal have been exhausted. The current practice of reducing or removing benefits while an appeal is in progress subjects the claimant to unacceptable hardship, even if they subsequently receive back…[truncated by the system]
Whoops – that last part should read:
…even if they subsequently receive backdated payments after a successful appeal. Backdated payments are not enough to compensate someone who has been forced into debt (incurring exorbitant credit card interest) just to pay the bills until their appeal comes through a year later.
Stop calling severely sick and disabled people ‘customers’!!!!!
They are patients – no matter how you play with words to belittle the medical conditions of these vulnerable people that you are victimising and harassing.
Whatever you decide to do to these people it might be an idea to check European law.
You will no doubt do to these people whatever you can get away with.
A mentaly ill friend of mine recently committed suicide aged 39 due to having her money stopped and being threatened with eviction under your new WCA.
I’m sure you will save money when countless more people do the same under your “incentives” to get the sick into non existant jobs.
As a disabled person I object to being called a ‘patient’ outside of a medical context. My disability continues to be a major factor in my life, but because it is stable and in the management phase I have regularly gone a year or longer without seeing any medical personnel. ‘Patient’ is not an appropriate description. I object even more strongly to being labelled ‘vulnerable’ without consideration of the precise individual context within which the label is used. Persistent misuse of ‘vulnerable’ to refer to all disabled people regardless of context leads to infantilisation of disabled adults, with disabled people being considered less than adult, less capable of holding down a job and ultimately just less. I’m vulnerable in specific contexts, but so is the toughest member of the SAS!
I agree Patient is the wrong word and I’m not vulnerable,what do you call me Robert is ok.
The correct term, as is used (for example) in the contract between the DWP and Atos, is “claimant.” This is neither patronising, or infantilising, nor insulting, merely accurate.
The term “customer” implies a commercial relationship, subject to the law of contract, in which the said customer is at liberty to take their business elsewhere.
I wish…
In addition to the above mentioned comments regarding those in chronic pain being forced into the work related activity group no account has been taken as to the cocktail of medications one has to consume just to preform basic tasks.
Medication + pain + illness = a recipe not only to endanger oneself but others in an activity/work environment hence breaking every health and safety regulation in the book.
Until one is placed in the correct group the questions asked are irrelevant for as previously stated only those actually capable of employment should be in a work related group.
Note should read in addition to the comments made below.
My problem is I have just been added to the WRAG. I have a job am off work sick, will I have to undergo work related activities? My condition stops me from working at the moment and until sufficient pain management or surgery has been decided on this will remain with me, not miraculously dissappear because I have met the criteria for ATOS and DWP. People in pain or too ill to work are exactly that ” its what it says on the tin,” Yes there are people claiming they are too ill to work and are clearly scamming the DWP but please when a perons GP , Hospital Specialist, Surgeons, Physciatrists etc etc can provide specific evidence of a patients condition in detail, then assumptions should not be made to determine a persons capabilty to or not to be able to work, so when Medically trained people say this patient cannot work then they should be placed in the Support groups then phased into WRAG when they are sufficiently recovered enough to be able to, and not made out to be lazy or scroungers just sitting at home.
* Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?”
In theory it’s fine, but it could lead to major inequalities as two people with the same circumstances but living in different areas were required to undertake different sorts and amounts of work-related activity.
* In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
I think that there should be a medical certificate obtained relating to the specific activities to be undertaken. I do not think that the decision as to what activities could safely be undertaken should be made by anyone not a doctor or occupational therapist.
* What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
A fresh medical to see whether they should be in the support group.
I can foresee quite a few judicial reviews arising from this, as people challenge the reasonableness of the decisions involved.
Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
Until such time that ATOS medicals accurately reflect the physical/mental conditions of claimants no work-related activity can be correctly assessed/suggested.
In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
None. Many in the WRAG are incorrectly placed by ATOS failings to undertake medicals correctly.
What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
There sloud be no ‘consequences’ for the ‘customer’ . As customers we are entitled to the John Lewis treatment by the DWP.
The government is failing to acknowledge the job shortage for all within the UK and certainly the lack of suitable facilities for many disabled claimants to work within, employment is not just a desk to sit at, it entails transport, disabled access, disabled toilets, due regard to health and safety in the workplace, fire regulations etc etc plus many have serious degenerative conditions not recognised by ATOS and the Lima software.
Conditionality is actually going to cause further stress which will lead to further health problems for many, with its ongoing costs to the NHS.
“Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?”
I do not think that there should be any such ‘powers’ at all, but yes, they should be used in a flexible and tailored manner and work should never exceed a minimum wage ratio.
“In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?”
None. That would be scapegoating disabled people for employers’ failure to hire them. Please see:
http://www.iosh.co.uk/news_and_events/news/latest_news_releases/25_back_to_work_plans.aspx
“What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?”
But they already have good cause! WRA is not a proper job which pays the bills!
I have a chronic back condition. I am always in pain, ranging anywhere from discomfort to passing out, but usually somewhere in between. I have a wonderful manager who gives me unbelievable support and flexibility in working around my condition and has done so for the past 10 years.
I currently have a claim for ESA, having gone into an acute episode mid August. I have been told that I am eligible for payment but have yet to receive a penny. I am on a phased return to work. As my hours increase, my file is pulled from payments, passed back to a processor and the whole thing starts again. My point is that the agency itself appears unable to effectively support the very thing it is claiming to promote. These questions are all somewhat meaningless until this has been resolved.
Turning to the questions raised:
Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
I don’t like the word “powers”. As a customer with a chronic condition, that terminology suggests a long term claimant must be malingering. This generally isn’t the case. All work related support should be individually tailored, infinately flexible and genuinely useful.
In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
Only the individual customer’s doctor can truly answer that one. What sort of activity? Under what what conditions? How do you define success or failure? The question is too general.
What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
I’m trying to comply and am receiving nothing. The deal has to work both ways. If I wasn’t trying to return to work I’m sure I’d be receiving benefit on a regular basis. Where’s the incentive? More to the point, How do you define “good cause”? The problem with a chronic condition is that you never know when you’re going to have a bad day, week or month, physically or mentally. Adding the stress of a pre-booked “requirement” to the mix can just make things even worse. What may be a good cause to me may not appear so to someone else, even if they suffer with a similar condition. Some things are too personal to define in that way and pain is an extremely personal thing. It can never be shared, or even adequately described, because we all experience and understand it differently.
1) Do you agree that work-related activity powers should be used flexibly, and tailored to the circumstances of the individual?
Some individuals on ESA are sick.
Ill.
Not well enough to function.
In pain, constantly.
Have incurable or managable conditions.
Is there any of this that you understand?
TOO ILL TO WORK.
Yes, they might have the correct number of limbs, and eyesight, and hearing and speech, but chronic and constant pain means that all these functioning limbs, organs and senses are OF NO USE, because their use includes desperate unrelenting, exhausting, soul destroying pain.
So whilst they are excluded from the support group of ESA they are forced into the WRA group, when there is no WRA they can complete.
Yes, they can write a cv with assistance, but what use is a cv when the person cannot consistently function?
2) In what circumstances is it appropriate to direct customers to undertake specific activities?
When there is a real benefit to be gained from the person undertaking the activity.
For example;
Someone employed in a physical job develops a purely physical disability. They do not experience constant pain, or regular intermittent pain. They just cannot continue in their previous role.
This person may benefit from retraining, assistance with identifying jobs that they may be suitable for given their previous experience, talents, personality.
It would be inappropriate to force chronically sick people, those in pain etc to write a cv, or retrain, or practise interviews that have no short or long term benefit at all as these people are not well enough, and never will be well enough to complete even a few hours of sustained activity without it damaging their health.
3) What should the consequences be if someone fails to comply with the work-related activity requirement without good cause?
This is dependant of the definition of “good cause”.
For the sick and chronically ill, those in pain etc, should not even be included in WRA.
Every day is “good cause” when you have no idea how ill you will be feeling, what level you pain will be from one moment to the next.
It is a ludicrous state of affairs that a system is in place that CANNOT DIFFERENTIATE between;
1) Those who want to work but cant (due to lack of job opportunities, training, accessibility, support, or experiencing bias, descrimination etc)
2) Those for whom work is impossible due to pain, illness, but excluded from the support group.
Interesting. But consider this. What is one of the most proven methods of medically curing depression: farm work, exercise and physical labour. They have programs in Scandinavia where this is exactly what they have found to be true. In fact often if a person is already working doing office work, with depression, they get a sick note and go and work on a farm for a number of months until they are well again.
Also, unless you can see a physical defect (x-ray etc) in someone’s spine, 90% of back pain related injury is in the area of the mind/body connection. What is the best stated cure for such things, exercise and mobility. I.e. not staying at home, but getting out and about. Working supports healthy living.
These arguements are always taken from the view that something is being taken away when benefits are withdrawn. That is not IMHO the correct way to look at this. The natural state of things is that nothing is given. However, as a society we chose to take care of members of our society. Societies have rules of behaviour that imply that people should make an effort to contribute to that society. If people consistantly choose not to be part of that society, then they are in effect opting out and as such our social covenent with them ends.
“What is one of the most proven methods of medically curing depression: farm work, exercise and physical labour”
Incorrect.
Clinical depression is caused by an imbalance of chemicals within the brain. It can be reversed by a combination of medication and therapies. Physical activity will release certain chemicals in the brain which give a boost to emotions, but it has been proven medically that some people who have recurring depression lose the ability to create these chemicals.
There may be a few who have reaction depression brought on by one-off trauma’s, or cumulative effects of minor set-backs.
This type of “transient” depression may be alieviated by activity, but also tends to “self-heal” regardless.
Not all depression is the same.
“Also, unless you can see a physical defect (x-ray etc) in someone’s spine, 90% of back pain related injury is in the area of the mind/body connection”
So 10% have a spinal condition.
90% have pain caused by an injury, resulting in back pain.
The answer is to cure them.
Make them well enough to work, to return to their jobs or be retrained, but only when the pain has either been removed, or reduced to the level where it is bearable.
You seem to believe that complaining about a “bad back” means there is no way of telling if the claiment is actually telling the truth.
There are many, many tests available to confirm a physical defect or injury exists, not just x-rays.
So you have solved the “problem” of the chronically sick and disabled by describing a “solution” for a tiny, tiny percentage of those people.
“These arguements are always taken from the view that something is being taken away when benefits are withdrawn”
Yes, what is taken away is the ability to pay for care, transport, and extra costs related to illness and disability, such as assistance, extra laundry and bathing.
“If people consistantly choose not to be part of that society, then they are in effect opting out and as such our social covenent with them ends.”
I assure you no-one “chooses” to be ill, disabled or injured. The number of people who “choose” this and actually manage to receive financial help are less than 0.5% of the total recipients.
No-one is opting out, many have paid in when they were well enough to work, many yearn to be well enough to work. Whilst they are genuinely too ill to work they are neither “choosing” or “opting out”.
Your blanket cures and assumptions are offensive.
Interesting. But consider this. Depression is often used as a ‘Catch all phrase’ but the causes and effects of ‘depression’ are as unique as every individual is unique. Of course people who have suffered, do suffer with depression know what helps them, be that work, exercise and or physical labour. In the UK I am unaware that we have any programmes like those in Scandanavia and it is people in the UK we are talking about. OK set them up offer them to people suffering but do not compel them.
‘90% of back pain related injury is in the area of the mind/body connection’ I’d like to know how that is quantified. Somethings are missed medically – for years – if that is the case and the patient knows they are in pain and in effect the medics don’t find anything leads to depression. Of course exercise and mobility aids healthy living as does work. So encourage walking groups, allow free swimming, promote exercise programmes for the long term depressed but don’t force them. Sadly, these are the things that are being cut, so who are the intelligent ones? Those withdrawing the little things that help maintain the health of those who struggle in ways that those that have always been healthy have no comprehension of.
If you have never had to be dependent on benefits you are blessed. Having to be dependent on them can be a blessing too as it teaches you much about the ‘natural state of things’, anyone’s circumstances can change in the blink of any eye through no fault of their own and if that happens one is faced with a barrage of beuracracy akin to a strait jacket – difficult enough to get out of if you were Houdini in excellent health – imagine trying to get out of it when your mental and or physical health are extremely diminished – highly unlikely. At times in life we all need support, people will do what they can to help their own situations and they need support not pressure to enable them to do that and it’s a fine line between the two. As a society we seem to be choosing not to care for members because those that are weaker and more vulnerable are being penalised – is that because they are not following society’s rules of behaviour – the rules that mean that those in charge of the money can be totally irresponsible with it and continue to be so? That banks, bailed out by taxpayers money continue to pay bonuses whilst benefits (not just money) but free swimming, health programmes, elderly care day centres etc are being cut. Whose rules?
>> unless you can see a physical defect (x-ray etc) in someone’s spine, 90% of back pain related injury is in the area of the mind/body connection. What is the best stated cure for such things, exercise and mobility. <> The natural state of things is that nothing is given. <> If people consistantly choose not to be part of that society, then they are in effect opting out and as such our social covenent with them ends. <<
Society exists to protect those who need it, those who argue against that are the ones who are actually opting out of it.
(Repeated as the system apparently has issues with angled brackets in text)
“unless you can see a physical defect (x-ray etc) in someone’s spine, 90% of back pain related injury is in the area of the mind/body connection.”
Look up syndromes like Ehlers Danlos, or Chronic Pain, or phenomena like neuroplastic remodelling; all real, all disabling, all invisible to scans. I’ve been disabled for more than 20 years, I’ve had more scans than you can shake a stick at, they do in fact show damage, just not damage that explains my disability. Yet all of my consultants agree that I have a real, physical problem. As for work, I’ve worked with my disability for two decades, until my ex-employers forced me kicking and screaming out of the door. What good did that work you advocate do for my health? Well most days it reduced me to being curled up on the office floor in pain, and the levels of ongoing pain destroyed my life outside of work. Work a panacea? I think not.
“The natural state of things is that nothing is given.”
Actually the natural state of things, as shown by studies of the animal kingdom, is that altruistic behaviour, such as babysitting, is common across multiple species.
” If people consistantly choose not to be part of that society, then they are in effect opting out and as such our social covenent with them ends.”
Society exists to protect those who need it, those who argue against that are the ones who are actually opting out of the social covenant.
what a fantastic post by CR.
I often wonder why the coalition harps on about getting the long term sick and disabled back to work.
Can`t they understand that there is a vast difference between being physically disabled and sick and disabled.
They seem to think that disabled or sick people saying that they`d like to work if they could,means that they should go to work!
A person wishing that they could work is at opposit ends of the spectrum to being able to work.
I suffer from the advanced stages of Ankylosing spondylitis,osteopena,chrohns disease,periodic inflammatory eye disease(all linked to each other),fatigue and depression(caused by the chronic pain).
I worked until I could work no more(in fact the then dss doctor enquired why I worked with my condition for so long!)and ceased working in 1997.
I`d love to have a cure for my condition and go back to work,I`d even like to work part time if it was possible,alas all my conditions rule what I can do from day to day and I never know how good or bad i`m going to feel until I actually wake up!.
Fact is,when I eventually take the atos test for work capability,I`ll be placed in the support group if the wca is fair and humane.
Even then,I`d go to some work advice sessions in the REMOTE chance that I could work even a couple of hours per week.
But if I`m unfairly found fit for work,I`ll appeal.
What baffles me is that the Government are handing us over to ATOS and other private organisations, who’s primary motive is profit, big profit. This will mean that for every single person who goes for a medical (done by ATOS) they will be paid and then paid again for trying to get us out to work. These organisations are already paid millions by the government for setting up these changes and will profit again by the numbers taken off benefit. With ESA tests being declared not fit for purpose it remains to be seen how many of us will find ourselves placed on JSA or work related groups, rather than the higher paying support groups. Privatising everything means that our once treasured welfare system will be gone and we the disabled could be left destitute.